In this episode of The Mindful Leader Podcast, we have a very special guest, Toby Pasman, the founder and CEO of NeuroFlex, a mobile peak performance, brain assessment, and training service based in South Florida.
Toby is a board-certified QEEG brain mapping and neurofeedback BCN practitioner, trained under respected Neurofeedback pioneers like Dr. Joel F. Lubar. He has extensively studied the fields of psychology, neuroscience, nutrition, and physiology, bringing together cutting-edge research to the business world.
In this fascinating conversation, we explore the cutting-edge field of neurofeedback and its practical applications for leaders and business professionals looking to improve their mental performance. We discuss Toby's extensive background in neuroscience, psychology, nutrition, and physiology and how he brings these disciplines to the business world.
This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in visualizing the brain, understanding QEEG brain mapping, and exploring the transformative potential of neurofeedback to improve their mental performance and achieve a high-performance mindset.
If you're interested in learning more about bringing out the best version of yourself, tune in to this episode of The Mindful Leader Podcast.
#neurofeedback #brainperformance #mentalperformance #techleadership #biohacking #mindfulness #EEQ #brainmap #mindset #highperformancemindset #mentalhealth
- Find out our blog, Instagram, LinkedIn, and podcast here: https://linktr.ee/themindfulleader
- Toby Tasman’s website: www.nuroflex.com
- Certified Neurofeedback practitioner search tool: www.isnr.org
- Toby’s LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/tobypasman
So welcome to The Mindful Leader Podcast. Today, I have a very special guest here with me, Toby Pasman. I got to know Toby a while ago while we were both working in the HPI Coaching, basically training over quite some time. It was a lot of fun, and learning a lot of new stuff on how to - It was a human potential coaching - how to really bring out the best version of yourself, basically, and other people through that coaching process. And that's how I got to know Toby. So when we talked a little bit, already at that point, Toby was sharing that he was already working on neurofeedback. And this was quite - the last year - so it was quite evolving. So Toby is now the founder and CEO of NeuroFlex, a mobile peak performance, brain assessment, and training service in South Florida. So this sounds pretty cool. And I had in earlier podcasts; I was already talking about the importance of neurofeedback, what it can do for you, and what kind of potential can be unlocked. And so that's why I think it's very relevant. If you're listening now to this episode, if you're a tech leader, or in general, in a leadership position or business professional, where mental performance is critical, or you want to squeeze out more brain performance, I usually talk about the high-performance mindset. And if you want to do this, neurofeedback is definitely something to consider. Now, Toby basically got into this field. And he was looking, at that point, at a variety of different disciplines, looking at psychology, neuroscience, nutrition, and physiology, and how to bring these things to the business world. So I think that when we talked about this, I felt this is a really good match in terms of our podcast audience because many listeners are in tech, basically in the business world. And I've usually seen big results - transformative results- if you bring different disciplines together, especially cutting-edge neuroscience research. And so this is where it looks like when we're talking. It's totally the split where you can be really inspired and excited about the possibilities of this research, but also the practical applications. So with that said, Toby is also a board-certified QEEG brain mapping. So QEEG brain mapping what it is we'll talk about later in the podcast. But needless to say, this is some really cool stuff when it comes to visualizing the brain and actually looking a little bit deeper at what the brain is doing. And also he's also certified in neurofeedback BCN. He has also been trained extensively in using Neurofeedback neurostimulation with Dr. Nicola Stock; now, he's training under Neurofeedback pioneer Dr. Joel Lubar. So these guys are well respected in this field. So that means basically, Toby, he really tried to - before going into this - really study the field extensively going in there, and that means we will have a pretty cool discussion today when we're talking about these topics. And with that said, I would say welcome again, Toby. And first things of all, for being here today. Of course, Reiner, it's a pleasure, thank you so much for having me on your show. Very good. Now, before we go into some of the areas around neurofeedback, maybe describe yourself a little bit how you got there, where you are now, basically maybe start in earlier childhood or college, wherever you feel it's relevant and share a little bit what got you here to this particular moment? Sure. So I guess going back to childhood, I was always a very curious kid in terms of I was thinking about my own thinking about other people trying to understand why other people were thinking and behaving the way they did, trying to understand my own actions and behaviours. So I kind of always had this, you know, sort of I guess interest in psychology and you know, even before I kind of knew what it was as a field. So, in college, I took a bio psychology class kind of learning about how the brain works on biological basis. And I thought it was so fascinating to learn how all of our thoughts, feelings, emotions, everything we experience in the world can kind of be linked back to the biological underpinnings of brain. And the brain communicates on both a chemical and electrical level. The chemical side of things people are a lot more familiar with, you know, I'm sure a lot of your listeners have heard of dopamine and serotonin and adrenaline, all these kind of popular neurotransmitters. But what's kind of more neglected is the electrical side of things. So the brain runs on it communicates with itself with these electrical frequencies, also known as brainwaves. And I got really kind of passionate about learning about brainwaves. At my college research lab, I started working at a lab that was exploring how these electrical signals related to things like generosity, gratitude, and really trying to understand, you know, what was going on in the brain during these states. So whatever what I did in college was super fascinating. I really enjoyed it. But it was just measuring, it was just assessing what the brain was already doing. It wasn't changing the brain in any way. And that's what I really got. You know, as I ended college, I was really left pondering the question of, you know, now that we can assess and be able to see what the brain is doing electrically, can we also then change and improve the way the brain communicates with itself, in order to improve things like depression and anxiety and help people suffering from neurological conditions. And that's really what drove me to the field of of Neurofeedback and brain mapping. Because these are basically ways of assessing and then training the brain on an electrical level, to actually modify the brain's electrical firing. And it all comes back to harnessing the brain's inherent neuroplasticity. So because the brain is plastic, it's able to rewire itself, constantly, we know this, you know, throughout adulthood, the brain does this. And this is something that's kind of, you know, relatively new discovery in the field of neuroscience up until a few decades ago, neuroscientists thought that the brain kind of at the end of childhood and child, brain development kind of stopped and people thought that, you know, kind of as you grew, older brain cells just started dying off, you know, maybe from, you know, excessive drinking, or drug use, or just the general ageing process. And what we now know is that, brain cells and connections sometimes do die off, but new ones are constantly being formed. And this is something that takes place, they've proven now, all the way throughout life, all the way up into people's, if they live, make it to their 90s, this takes place still. So with that being said, I got really passionate about working with all these neuro technologies to really work on, you know, changing and improving how the brain works, which then has such an impact on things like high performance, people's ability to have a growth mindset for people to feel motivated, to be able to actually, you know, follow through on the goals that they set out for themselves, a lot of it does tie back into how their brain is working on a biological level, people's people's brains aren't functioning properly and people are dealing with, you know, excessive amounts of, of, you know, kind of brain fog and cognitive fuzziness, or they're trapped in anxieties and worries, it really detracts from people's ability to really perform at their highest highest level. So with what I'm doing now, it's kind of all about training the brain on a biological level, to be able to then help people achieve whatever it is that they're hoping to be able to do with their life. Very good. Now, let's go back a little bit still in college. I'm curious about in terms of then the motivation. You already mentioned in terms of how the brain works and learning more about how it communicates and studying it so I can see that those research aspects. Was there also personal motivation when you learn about these capabilities for yourself that you think that "this is kind of cool," where you started with some self experimentation as well to see, is it really working? No, definitely so. I would say that, that experimentation started to kind of taking place after college, but throughout college, I, and even earlier, I dealt with a lot of social anxiety. And I kind of, used to think of it, as early on as something that was just kind of innate with who I was as a person and thinking that I was going to always kind of have to deal with that throughout life. But as I started kind of learning more and more about how the chemical and electrical events that take place in the brain generate all of our feelings and thoughts and behaviours, I started realizing that this is, the social anxiety I was experiencing was the result of of how my brain was performing. It wasn't something that was inherently tied to who I was as a person. And I really, really kind of learned this firsthand, after college, and I started in the neurofeedback field, actually playing around with neuro stimulation. And I first started with a brain map on myself. So a brain map, as you had briefly mentioned in the intros is basically a way to study the electrical activity of the brain that basically transforms these raw EEG signals that we're able to pick up with these electrode caps. And it basically transforms that activity into these 2D heat maps of brain activity. So we're able to assess five major frequencies going from delta, theta, alpha, beta, and high beta. And we're able to see, is the brain producing healthy amounts of these different frequencies? Is it over producing a frequency? Or is it under producing a frequency? And in what areas of the brain is that occurring? Sorry to interrupt one quick thing, you happen to have one of these caps around in that you can put us into the camera so people get actually the sense how that thing looks? Because it makes it more concrete. Yes, yes, I certainly do. Let's see here. So very quick. And actually, I can actually put it on here. So this is this is what it looks like. It's a 19 channel cap. So it's measuring from, from all these different 19 electrodes, Is it a dry cap? It's not a dry cap. So you do have to put electrode gel, I squirt a gel into each of these electrodes, kind of wiggle it around with a blunt tip needle, and then you plug it into an amplifier, which connects to a computer, and is able to sort of be able to read the electrical signals. So it kind of, well, the headphones around here, but kind of kind of basically sits like that, you know, I will pull it over my whole head. Let's say the client comes to you, and wants to get started taking QEEQ of the mind. So that means there is a little bit of preparation time, they have to put on that cap, and you have to make sure these electrodes are connecting. And then using this lubricant, basically to make sure that the connection is strong, right. So there's some calibration part. How long does it usually take to prepare a client to get into this? Yeah, that preparation process is relatively quick, I would say maybe a 10 minute setup. And then we'll do a couple 10 minute recordings when with the eyes open when with eyes closed. So and then a little bit of cleanup time, but a client will come in and then you know, be out within like 45 minutes or so. So it's not an invasive procedure whatsoever. And it's not super time intensive. Going back to when you were doing experiment. Yeah. No, absolutely put that, wired it and then of course, my everything might be a little bit harder to do it for yourself. Okay. Well, luckily, I had a co-worker who was able to hook me up, you know, after work one day, we had all the equipment. So we would set each other up sometimes. And I basically - going back to kind of the social anxiety that I used to deal with a lot. I found that there were there are certain areas of my brain that were very involved in verbal fluency and social interaction that were basically running at your I was over producing some of the slower brainwave frequencies and under producing some of the faster ones. So there's kind of those areas where we're offline a little bit. So I actually ran a neuro stimulation protocol on myself, based on the brain map, which is how I was work with clients. It's all tailored based on what each unique brain map, what each unique person has going on with their brain. But I basically found for what my brain specifically needed was to kind of be sped up and be basically I and trained these beta brainwaves which are really involved in focus and concentration, and in certain areas of the brain will really help with verbal fluency and social interaction. And I would notice, even from very early on, I think the first session or two, I would, I would do this like after work, I would set myself up, and I might call a friend or a family member or something, I'd be on the phone. And I would notice that, at first, when I first started the session, I'd be kind of searching for words, and it was kind of like, my verbal fluency was, the conversation wasn't really running too smoothly, and I was hesitating a lot. And throughout the session, it was like, I started realizing like I was, I was just talking without even like thinking about what was going to come next and not overthinking things in my head, like I had always done in the past. And it was just like, so much easier. And I realized how, basically, that effect lasted for a little while, kind of like during the session and after the session, when I first started doing it. But the more sessions I did on myself, sort of like if you're teaching say, you know, kid how to ride a bike, you use training wheels at first, and then it sort of helps helps the kid be able to balance on the bike. And started the brain is similar in the sense of once you teach the brain how to produce these different electrical patterns, it gets better and better at producing them on its own. So I eventually got to the point where that almost that that level of increase verbal fluency, and just way, enhance social interaction almost just became my new baseline state, after I did enough sessions on myself. And that's what I've seen with countless clients and patients that I've worked with, whatever their issue might be, you know, everything from, from mood issues, to sleep problems, anxiety issues, you know, you name it, there, there's basically the brain starts adjusting its electrical patterns. And then once you do enough sessions, it really starts becoming hardwired, and you can improve kind of raise the baseline of brain performance. Very good. So then, to summarize this. So we can basically say that there is always the brain that is, pretty much everything is electrical activity, then you mentioned there is different the speed of these brain waves. Some of them are very slow, like the delta waves, then there's the next one theta, alpha, beta, high beta. So the higher basically they go, the faster the waves are. And so with the EEG with the electrodes in that cap that you put on, you put it to - was at 19 different points, right? And then then the basically the signals and of course, they're probably very sensitive signals, they then go into transceiver and then into the computer, and then there's some software. The software is where a lot of the magic happens to make sense out of all of these signals, right? Exactly. And then at the end of the day, there is a specific pattern that you see that you actually seen for yourself, and you did it first time for yourself, you see a certain pattern and the software at the end of the day, however, when you want to basically say that, "Oh, yeah, this region or this area is doing a little bit more, this is doing a little bit less." That means there has to be some reference as well. Right? Reference database? Yes. Can you share a little bit how that works, just so people get a sense of how the calculation is done? Yes, that's a great question. So different brain maps, software systems, you know, have different reference databases. Basically, what they try to do is to take kind of "normal," and I say that in quotes because it's like, what exactly is a normal brain? Well, we're, you know, what they consider a normal brain, someone who's not on psychiatric medications, who doesn't have psychiatric diagnoses, no history of like TBI, traumatic brain injuries, so about as normal as you can get. And some databases have, I believe, Around 1000, 1200 people. So they basically compile all of this data, and then it's age-matched. So they're able to say, you know, a 10-year-old brain, it's normal for there to be a lot more of the slower brainwaves, children spend a lot of time in these daydreaming states of alpha and beta, whereas those waves start decreasing as you get into adulthood. So the databases are always age match. So we're able to know, kind of based on a patient's age or a client's age, what might be normal for them. But there is a limitation because normal might not necessarily be optimal. So that's something that probably a lot of, you know, the clients or patients you work with, it's like not about just having labs, like blood labs that are in the normal range. We don't want to necessarily just be, you know, normal performers; you want to be high performers, you know, we want what's optimal. So that's something that basically for each person's brain is very, very unique. And we assess to see the balance of the different brainwaves, so not as, it's not just comparing people's brainwave data to the reference database, but it's also comparing the brain to itself. And basically, what I mean by that is, so the five frequencies, the delta, theta, alpha, beta, and high beta, we're looking at, you can think of them as, say, think of the brain as pizza pie. And basically, we're trying to see how large each slice is; we know there are five slices, but those slices might not even be slices. So we're trying to measure to see, you know, does someone have one huge slice and one really thin, small slice. So it's basically showing how many sorts of neural real estate the brain is devoting to producing these different electrical frequencies. So to give you an example, the theta-to-beta ratio is a very good indicator of ADHD, particularly in children. So if children have excessive, basically, when when I say excessive, usually at least three times as much theta brainwaves compared to beta brainwaves that show in research, there's over a 90% chance that that individual has ADHD. So there's basically this imbalance of, you know, the theta brainwave taking up this huge slice of pizza. Yeah, so it's about kind of balancing out those different brainwaves. And when there's a balance of the brainwaves, the brain can work in harmony, and all of the brainwaves can work in unison because you want to be constantly able to fluctuate, you want to be able to get into states of, you know, increased alertness, and be able to produce beta waves when you want to be able to focus and concentrate. But also, when you want to be able to decompress and relax and, maybe, meditate or do yoga, you want to be able to sink into those lower brainwaves to alpha and theta. In order to get really deep restorative sleep, your brain needs to be able to produce healthy amounts of delta brainwaves. So it's not about taking people to get huge amounts of a certain Brainwave. It's really about making sure that the brain is producing healthy levels, not too much, not too little of all the different brain waves are looking at. Yeah. And I like the analogy, use the pizza and the slices. I think people can relate to this. And especially now going to mylook at my audienc:
leaders, leaders in tech business leaders. For them- many of them they come to me the topic of focus is usually I would say six or seven out of 10 - For them, this is a big issue generating more focus. And yeah, of course, it could be even the case that there could be some of them could be diagnosed with ADHD. But I see this usually more as a spectrum of basically there is there is basically the ability to focus is either there and it works very well or it may work not that well. And I think here this is the good thing with neurofeedback, you have a way to systematically measure this by looking at okay, how much do we getting on this theta slice? So theta is the most lower wave. So how big is that theta slice? Now let's look at the beta slice. This is where people are actively thinking, and maybe that slice is way too thin. So that means the theta beta ratio. If it's more than I think you mentioned three, right? So if it's higher, it's usually a good indication that focusing is limited, right? And so, this way, it's a very objective assessment. If you do this is a baseline, maybe not just once, but over multiple sessions, you can track it. And you can also see how it changes over time. Absolutely. And the thing I would add to that is I don't pretend to be a mind reader. And what I mean by that is, if I just look at a random brain map, you know, I might be able to say, okay, these are, these are patterns that are typically associated with, you know, trouble focusing or, you know, increased worry and rumination, but it's all about pairing the neurophysiology data with the brain map, along with doing a full intake, getting people's medical history, psychiatric history, looking at what things are working well in their lives, and what isn't working so well in terms of, you know, their relationships, their performance at work, their sleep, their ability, you know, to kind of shift gears and calm down, you know, after work, we look at all of these different things and pair it with the neurophysiologic neurophysiological data to kind of give us a complete picture of, you know, what someone might be dealing with, and it sort of helps almost give, give people some more understanding of, okay, you know, I'm not just a weak person, because I'm not able to focus for however long I want. And I keep getting distracted in meetings at work. It's actually my brain that is not producing sufficient quantities of a specific type of brainwave that enables me to focus for that period of time. So it kind of takes the sort of, like moral stigma out of the equation, and helps people see, okay, what I'm dealing with is a brain issue, and those brain issues, because it's, we're able to change the brains functionality, all of those things can be altered and improved, we just need to give the brain the right stimulus to change. And that's why we need to do a brain map. So we're able to see which kind of way which direction the brain needs to be pushed towards. And once we know that, we can start nudging the brain in different directions. So it starts self-correcting and balancing out. And let's actually now talk a little bit about this. So in this scenario, now we have, let's say a person and the person already had noticed"Yeah, focus could be better. Sometimes I get too easily distracted." Now I heard about this Neurofeedback stuff. And I was listening to this episode here with Toby was talking about focus. So, on one side, we do now what you mentioned, there's assessment, we're doing this brain map using QEEG, we also look at the brain wave distributions. So we have now all this data. Great. And we may also realize "Oh yeah our focus based on when we're looking at this, focus could be for sure, it could be a topic here." But now let's actually go into now this phase when we now want to make some changes. So the idea of this neurofeedback. So there's this feedback, we want to - at the end of the day, we want to alter this electrical activity in the brain. And the question is, how do we do it? Great question. So there's a variety of different tools and technologies out there that can I can do this. And I work with a lot of them. And the reason is when I say when you go to the gym, you might you don't just chest press for the whole hour that you're there. You might, if you're lifting weights, you might go to the chest press and then do some shoulder press, and then lat pull downs and maybe hop on the treadmill for a little while; you kind of vary it up. And the brain is kind of similar in the sense of, you know, when when we're training the brain technologies like Neurofeedback, which we'll speak on, is very effective, but also some other kind of lesser-known technologies, like photo bio modulation. Light Therapy really helps kind of repair the cell and stimulate the mitochondria, which produce all of the energy, and the brain is chock full of neurons in the brain are chock full of mitochondria. So once you increase cellular energy, with one of the devices we use as a photo bio modulation helmet, it actually enables the Neurofeedback to work better because the brain has all of a kind of the raw energy that it needs to then modify its electrical signaling. But then talking specifically about Neurofeedback, because it is probably the most popular kind of neuromodulation, that's kind of the bucket that or umbrella that all of these different technologies fall under neuromodulation and Neurofeedback definitely being the most popular neuromodulation tool out there at this time. So basically, what Neurofeedback is, is basically you're hooked up to electrodes; it could be one electrode all the way up to, you know, a full electrode cap; people do it a lot differently. But basically, the basic premise is you're hooked up to electrodes. And in the computer, the neurofeedback trainer, in this case, me, I would be basically plugging in what I want to reward the person's brain with doing. So let's take the case of the executive that's having trouble focusing, and we see on the brain map that they're producing, they're not producing sufficient quantities of those beta brainwaves, say, in the frontal lobes. So we see that kind of there's a lot of these locations where we'll put the electrodes kind of right on the frontal lobes, and then reward the brain whenever it is producing more beta brainwaves. And how that would look is, say you're watching with the Neurofeedback, you'd be watching some kind of media could be a TV show or movie, listening, or watching something. And as your brain produces more of those beta brainwaves, you would see the screen get clearer, and the volume would get louder, then when your brain says it starts to start wandering off, your mind starts wandering, then the brain produces more of those slower alpha and theta waves, the reward will get taken away. So you'll see the screen kind of get all dark, and the audio will drop down in the volume. So it's providing real-time feedback; this is millisecond by millisecond. So it's actually quick for then your conscious brain can process. So a lot of this is occurring subconsciously. But the brain is basically able to figure out what it needs to do in order to get the reward of a clear screen and louder tones. So it's basically the feedback part of basically telling the brain exactly when it's doing a good job. And then also telling the brain when it needs to self-correct. And that's Neurofeedback in a nutshell, and it's something that the more sessions we do, the brain gets better and better at creating those different electrical patterns and starts being able to just produce them on its own without additional feedback. So to summarize them. So let's say I'm now sitting back in a relaxed state, I wear this either this cap or I have connected a few of these electrodes to the software and session starts, then there you define that there is an objective today, we want to maybe learn how to generate more beta, maybe want to train how to lower theta, or maybe we want to train alpha - to increase alpha waves, whatever the the objective is that you derive based on this analysis prior and what are the objectives. So now you have determined this is the training goal, you sit back, and that you are in a relaxed state. And then at the end of the day, you may be watching to some video or to some light or you may hear some sound as well, right? It could be looks like then there is a variety of creative options there that can be used. And then you sit there for I don't know, 30 minutes. Usually 30 minutes, yeah. So you basically choose it back, and the brain pretty much figures it out. You don't have to do anything. And then the session is over and that means training is completed. Now, if you do one session, that's great, but I know from my own experience I'm also doing over the years I did a lot of neurofeedback training usually you have to do multiple sessions. What's your experience in terms of seeing some of these results? What is a reasonable expectation? Yeah, so in terms of - when you do your first Neurofeedback session, the brain is starting to make the changes in electrical activity; it's starting to move in the right direction. But say the case of you're starting up a workout regimen and you haven't worked out in a year. It doesn't matter how hard you go at the gym, no matter how much weight you try to lift, and no matter how much you exhaust yourself. You're not going to wake up the next morning looking like Dwayne The Rock Johnson. It's a process of, you know, building muscle. So, in the same way, the brain takes time to really harness its neuroplasticity. So you're not going to get necessarily a huge kind of overnight success. Now, people often will report from very early on, maybe the first session, noticing improvements in sleep or reductions in their stress levels that can occur. But I think to temper people's expectations, usually, once people do a few sessions, preferably 5 to 10 sessions, is what I really like to get in order to start seeing real significant changes, both in people's symptoms or what they're looking to achieve, in terms of the focus, along with looking at the brain map. And that's actually my favorite part of what I do is looking at the kind of pre and post-brain map recordings and seeing, okay, this is how your brain looked functionally before we started doing any neurofeedback. And we do, say 10 Neurofeedback sessions, and we see how the brain has actually changed its electrical firing, and it's producing much different activity and is then resulting in a change and improvement in people's performance. And it's something that the more you know it, people ask, like, "Is there ever a point that I could, that I should just stop? How many sessions do I need to do?" That's kind of the million-dollar question. And there's no solid answer to that; it's going back to the weight room analogy, it's like, people don't think of training and lifting weights in that same way of like, oh, you know, I've gone to the gym, you know, enough times now, and I don't need to ever go again, you know, so it's, I kind of think of the brain somewhat similarly, the more you do, the better, the more the worst shape that your brain is in, to begin with, it's kind of the more neurofeedback is, you know, we're going to need to do in order to get the brain back, you know, to a decent level of performance. But you take your high performers, your CEOs, your executives, these people are already probably their brains are already in a state of relatively high performance, they're just looking to get to that next level. So there's always a way we can tweak and tune up the brain to get to that even higher level of productivity, focus, and ability to manage stress, and the more sessions people do, the more benefits will continue to accumulate. So yeah, this is great. So the good thing, it's all measurable. So you can see track progress over time, you can make corrections. This is great. It's a data driven process, which I enjoy. And I like it, maybe the since we're running out of time. I want to think one more thing is, though, from your clients, what you're experiencing, do you see like more people who are more focusing on these problems like can't focus, ADHD, anxiety, these type of things, when there is a real, there's a real problem there, compared to people like want to squeeze out more performance. Is there balance between those? Or is it more the people who come to you or in the problem space or more in the optimization phase? Or is it mixed? Yeah, so with my company, NeuroFlex, it's specifically peak performance and wellness oriented. So these technologies like Neurofeedback have traditionally been used in a clinical setting, you know, for the past few decades. Now, you know, where people will have to go into psychiatrists or psychologists offices. And in some cases, that still is kind of, you know, the right move if people have severe mental health cases, or they've had a recent traumatic brain injury, it's still a very good idea to do that. And that's why since I'm not a licenced practitioner, I'll direct people you know, to do Neurofeedback under the guidance of a practitioner, if need be. But with the clientele I work with, it's strictly the peak performance people who are looking, it's the same type of people who are going to you know, they're doing yoga and go into cryo therapy, they're into biohacking. And they're really looking to maximise their brain prefer their overall performance. And they see these technologies as a way to really upgrade their brain and get to that next level. Very good. So then maybe, last question, we could probably talk now that we go deeper - we can do follow up episode for sure. Mabe about practical aspect here: So let's say people got excited listening to this and say, "oh, yeah, cool. I want to also start doing this. I want to squeeze out a little bit more on getting more focused or generate more Alpha waves or more in a balanced state," whatever the objective is, and the effort now the good stuff, what you're doing, of course, we will put links to your website, to your blog, and so that people can get in touch with you for sure. But let's say listeners here in Europe, right, so you're located in Florida, if they say "oh yeah, this is great ice and I go Toby's doing I want to go there and give it a try." So is it reasonable to assume if they basically visit you from Europe and stay there for maybe a week or two weeks, and then they do like every day, like a batch of sessions, like, like, really optimizing it for a full week or maybe a little bit longer? Is it reasonable to assume some good results with this type of approach? Or is it is it better to usually have more this regular thing that maybe you do it once or twice a week over? Let's say it two or three months. So there's definitely different approaches to neurofeedback. And in terms of, you know, there are some programs that are these Neurofeedback intensives where you might come to a place and, and sort of do a week of, of training or you're training to three hours every day. That's kind of in the minority of the way Neurofeedback practitioners usually approach things. A more standard approach would be working with a trainer, maybe two times a week, three times a week, if clients are really looking to maximize the results. You know, if any of your listeners happen to be in the Fort Lauderdale Miami area, not sure if there are, but if they do happen to be there, I'd be happy to work with them. If they're not, I would recommend that people and there's a resource isnr.org - There's a find a provider tool and I can send you the link to that so we can include it in the show notes. But basically, you can find a certified Neurofeedback practitioner through that search tool. And what you want to look for is someone who's board certified in neurofeedback, who has a BCN. Preferably also they have a QEEGD, which is the certification in brain mapping. So, looking for those couple of credentials is really key when people are trying to find a Neurofeedback pack practitioner. Because just like you want it, you're not going to bring your car to just any, you know, random person to try to get it fixed. You know, you want a mechanic that that's their career that they've been studying this you know, they know what they're doing. It same you know, if you're if you're going to be altering the electrical activity of your brain, you want someone who's gotten the proper training and certification and that's why I really, really urge people if they're, you know, interested in now starting Neurofeedback after maybe listening to this episode or one of the episodes other episodes you recorded on neurofeedback, I would really urge them to try to find a practitioner who's board certified. And if so, yeah, that makes sense. And if, let's say when they've seen this that "oh yea, Toby, I really want to work with you and get a glimpse of what's possible." Are you offering let's say a week or two week type of programs where they get a first impression and do some of the training to see how it works for them? Yeah, definitely. For people who are coming in from out of the area, I do some intensives where we would start someone the first day with with a brain map, and then kind of run people through the different neuro technologies, the photo bio modulation, the audio, visual entrainment, neurofeedback, do some heart rate variability, training, all these technologies kind of do and work with people, you know, maybe every day, maybe even twice a day. In some cases, if people do you have a very limited time, you know, on their hands. So, if anyone was planning a trip to the Florida area, South Florida, you know, I'd be happy to work with you for a week. Yeah. So I think it's not a bad thing. I mean, there could be various places in the world and compared to going to Florida in the sun. Especially this time of the year. Yeah, it's it's perfect. 75, 80 degrees out. So it looks like then this could be a good option. Basically, you schedule, maybe a week or two-week vacation. But it's a productive vacation in the sense that it's all about training your brain, and then you do this little bit and the rest for the time you can chill, relax, enjoy the sun. And when you come back, you didn't only had vacation time, but you actually did a lot for your brain in terms of improving some of the the frequencies or some of the objectives that you were looking at. So it's pretty cool. Exactly. Very good. So with that said, since we're over time already, thanks a lot. So we'll put out some of the links that you mentioned in the show notes for sure. I think we wanted to some point offices and follow up to go a little bit deeper in Cue EEG, and provide maybe also a few examples for People who already get into this, I know when I was looking at these maps, this is quite impressive when you start looking at your own brain looking at it for the first time. And so I could see there's some good opportunities for deep dives. But any maybe I would say in terms of last advice, or something that you want to say to our listeners is an action item out of this episode, we say this is something that you could do to get started in this area. Yeah, absolutely. And writer, if you don't mind, I'm gonna just, my patient just knocked on the door. I'm gonna just tell her that I'm going to be a minute and I will answer that question. Very good. So, in terms of an action item, I would say, you know, not even directly, Neurofeedback related, but just in in terms of something that people could do to really maximize their brain performance, I would say getting sufficient deep sleep, which could be increased by, you know, we know that aerobic exercise, can you sleep, limiting caffeine later in the day waiting stimulants, using blue light blocking glasses, or making sure you have something like flux installed on your computer, or kind of a night mode on your phone, really, making sure that you're not blocking your body's melatonin production. All of these things are going to help you get really good deep sleep. And deep sleep, I really, truly believe is sort of the underpinnings of all of the brain performance and being able, and enabling the brain to really get a rejuvenating restorative time to really clear out toxins and cellular debris that accumulates throughout the day. And really just wake up in the morning with, you know, a tonne of energy ready to jump out of bed. So definitely people I would recommend that they really hone in on their sleep. Thanks. Yeah, this is this is helpful for sure. Deep Sleep, improving sleep, and thanks for sharing some of these effects and best practices. So thanks again, Toby. This was a great episode, I think hopefully, the listeners here they got a glimpse into what to do with neurofeedback QEEG, brain mapping and how to use it to optimize their brain performance. So thanks again for sharing all this knowledge. I hope we can do some fun follow-up. Absolutely. And one last thing I'll just mention, my website neuro flex.com. It's a great resource just in terms of if people want to learn a lot more about brain mapping, or neurofeedback, people can read a lot more about it on the site. Also, I'd love to talk to people if you know I offer a complimentary 15 minute discovery call. So if people just want to hop on the phone and ask me whatever sort of question that they might have that popped up from our episode today, I'd recommend people just check out the website and book a call. We'll share your website and put all of this in the show notes so that people have a chance to connect with you. And yeah, thanks again for being here. And we'll talk hopefully in future. Thank you so much for having me on Reiner. I had fun today.