The Mindful Leader

Awakening in Leadership: On Self-Realization to Mind Upgrades - Helen Amery

October 23, 2023 Reiner Kraft, PhD Season 1 Episode 15
The Mindful Leader
Awakening in Leadership: On Self-Realization to Mind Upgrades - Helen Amery
Show Notes Transcript

In this episode of The Mindful Leader Podcast, we delve deep with Helen Amery, an awakening coach and author. Helen guides us through the profound journey of self-awareness and shares how these principles can mold one into a more insightful and compassionate leader.

Topics discussed:

* What exactly is awakening?
* Why updating your MindOS is crucial.
* Discover what can accelerate your journey toward awakening.
* How Does the Brain Trigger Awareness?
* Tips to kick-start your path to awakening.

Delve deeper into her insights with her book:

Connect with Helen through her website ( or LinkedIn profile (

Helen has also a free call coming up “Demystifying the Separate Self” (see

For more enlightening conversations and insights on becoming a better leader, tune into our other podcast episodes here:

Hi there. This is Reiner, host of the Mindful Leader Podcast. And I'm happy today that we have another episode with Helen Amery. When Helen approached me, I got interested also in her work and what she was talking about on her blog. And yeah, the topics around, in general, this idea of awakening, enlightenment, usually, initially, you're playing in context with some more fluffy, esoteric stuff. But as you know, on my side as a scientist, as someone who likes data, I, myself, got into this work, probably 10 to 15 years ago, and then started exploring some of those concepts and found a lot of value there. And e also KPIs on how to measure things as well. And that is for me the exciting part that you can always figure it out also how things are evolving, and how to track progress. And so really understanding a little bit more and learning some of the basics when we hear these terms. What does this actually mean, when it comes to achieving level of mastery, leadership mastery, getting better as a leader, but also as an individual. What does this all mean? And is this real stuff? Or is it, what I mentioned earlier, some are an awesome, more fluffy things that you can put your head around nothing. This could be interesting, then, therefore discussion, and thanks, Hellen, for being here. Welcome. Thank you. Yeah, I'm so delighted to be here. I'm looking forward to it. Yeah, sure. And I think maybe what we'll get started for us is to, if you could introduce yourself. Obviously, I read all the details on your blog. Looks like you're in coaching also for quite some time. But it's usually best for the listeners if you can summarise and also maybe share a little bit where you are currently on your journey. Yeah, I'd love to thank you. Yes, so I moved from corporate into self employment in 2014. So it's almost 10 years since I've had my business now. And when I made that move, it's fair to say I was pretty disillusioned with corporate at that point. I felt like all of everything to do with corporate was terrible. They were investing in the wrong things. They weren't putting, as I saw, putting attention on the things that mattered, which looked to me like leadership and culture, I could see I worked for a retailer. So I could see that in the stores where that was the emphasis the stores did really well, even in difficult economic climates. So when that started changing, that was a big impetus towards me moving away and moving into self employment. Because at that time, I was really interested in the psychological element of leadership. And, therefore, helping leaders create, you know, create great cultures, how can we create an environment that people love and thrive in and, and really enjoy themselves. And then after, probably only about four years in that got even three, in fact, I noticed my own experience, not being aligned with everything I talked about with leaders. So while I was with clients, it was all, you know, I was very calm and emotionally intelligent and saying all the right things in terms of what great leadership is and what great culture is. And then coming home and finding that I was irritable with my kids and getting stressed and just not being terribly pleasant a lot of the time, and feeling so busy feeling like I was juggling so many balls. And that was the beginning for me of the movement into the question I hear a lot of people asking, as they come into something bigger than than what we've believed was here, which was well, this can't be it, like the psychology stuff I've been doing can't be it, there must be something else going on. So that was my, that was my kind of curiosity. That took me from the psychological to before psychology to what are we before the mind? What what are we if not just these thoughts that run and seem to dictate our behaviour. And yeah, so since then, so since 2018, I've been deeply in this exploration of awakening and enlightenment, like you said, and really, really with a passion for it to be practical, for it to be real, for it not to be only for some fancy people who wear robes and sits on a mountain. Yeah, I really care about this being for real people in real lives, you know, I've, I've moved through this, with my two kids with a house to run with the business to run, you know. I've not had the experience of, you know, going off on retreat or going to India or any of that kind of thing. So I really do love that this is the kind of angle that we're going to be talking about today. Yeah, let's make it real. Let's make it practical. Let's, let's see that it's, it's right here and available for everybody. And yeah, like you say, to have data as well, to back it up is always awesome. To convince the mind that there is something here. Yeah, thanks for for sharing. Yeah, the mind likes stories. And so in my world, from terms of conceptual, what was helpful for me was to distinguish awareness itself. And then the mind as a separate, like, I usually refer to as the software, the mind software, the mind operating system, is people listening to this podcast usually are in tech, techies. And so they have a good understanding of what software is, and then that the software can be buggy. So meaning the mind software is not running that stable, it might, it may have problems, it may needs to be upgraded. You can think about also in this analogy, that the mind has all these different apps. And some of these, they may no longer be needed others they need to be installed. They're not there yet, let's say we need an empathy or an gratitude app. It's not there yet. And so that is helpful to distinguish between the mind itself as an object that is doing something and it's outputting, the ego, your personality. And then awareness, basically, is something to observe to become become aware of the mind actually and all the stuff while it's doing it. So this was when I looked back 10 15 years, my also initial thoughts about what is this awareness? And then what is the mind? And it became clear, then that awareness is the fundamental driver for pretty much everything. In particularly, for those leaders, then usually people would ask in terms of what is it? What do I need to become a good leader? And how do I achieve leadership mastery and so on. And my realization then wasn't these days that awareness is really the one that cultivating more awareness. And that is the start. Then once you become more aware, then you can actually see what the mind what your mind is doing, what your mind software is doing various buggy aspects to be improved. So that awareness is then first. And then, of course, I created over the years, I found quick ways, also on how to systematically upgrade your level of awareness, your level of present awareness, or LPA, which is the percentage of your day wakening day, in terms of when you're really connected to the present moment. So as I mentioned, like numbers and data. So LPA is something very tangible, where you can say, Oh, I'm over the course of the day, my LPA is 2%. So that means 2% of the time, I'm actually fully there. The remainder of the time, I'm caught up in self-chatter, busy thoughts, rehashing the past, planning the future, all this typical stuff, which is this basically unconscious type of behaviour being on autopilot. And the reason I point out 2% LPA, is because this is something I usually experience and starting to work with some leaders and helping them to upgrade mind and body. Usually, we start with this, pumping up LPA. I think now, going back now, first to this concept of awakening, right? So this also has this little bit esoteric attached to it. But maybe you can share a little bit from your experience. What does this refer to? Yeah, I love it. So your analogy there fits perfectly to describe both awakening and enlightenment. So I bring that into this because awakening is really very simple. In many ways, and so often, the mind can like, not accept it because you know our minds that love data and love tech and love figuring out problems. It tries to kind of dismiss as simple; think simple is a bit pointless. And that's really one of the greatest challenges with awakening, because awakening really is the recognition of awareness that you were referring to there, the fact of awareness, the fact I am aware, and that it is the most fundamental aspect of our experience. It comes first before anything else, like you said, you know, it's, it's what knows the mind. It's what knows anything. We've never known anything outside of awareness. First, there's always been awareness. And then there's been a thing, a thought, a feeling a person, an object or a piece of tech doesn't matter. It's always awareness first. And that which is actually a very simple recognition is very powerful. Because like you've said, with the people you work with, as awareness grows, and I would just suggest a slight tweak there rather than growing, it's actually being revealed. But as that grows, or is revealed, then change happens more easily. And the programming, the software updates much more easily. So that second part is the enlightenment process. So I term, at least in my term, so I think it's always worth highlighting not everybody distinguishes awakening and enlightenment in this way. But to me, it's super helpful to recognize there's two aspects to this one exploration, the recognition of awareness, and then the recognition of a mind, the software. And when we are in aware of awareness of the mind, that's the enlightenment process, because that's the point at which we see, "Oh, that app is really out of date." Or"I could really do with one of these apps," or, "wow, look how those two apps are fighting with each other. Like they're both trying to achieve opposing goals." And it's that awareness of that playing out, which allows the enlightenment process to happen. It's like a natural clearing up, you know, when we, when we aren't attached and identified with the mind, when we take that stand as as the awareness that we are and always have been, then the mind naturally moves into that cleaning up process, it naturally upgrades itself. Because it's like it wants to go in that direction it wants to be in its best performing mode. And so that enlightenment process is kind of it can start before after awakening, but certainly after awakening, it gets so much easier. Because we're no longer identified with it, we're no longer seeing that it's who I am. Because all this, these apps have come and gone through our life. But we've still been here through all that coming and going. And the more we know that the less we're identified with the apps, and then the more easily we can just go, "Oh, yeah, let's just change this one." Does not actively willing to do anything, but it's the seeing of it. The seeing of the malfunctioning aspects. Naturally has this intelligently


"No, that doesn't make sense. Let's stop doing that. You know, I keep working really long hours, why am I working really long hours? Oh, it looks like I'll be okay. It looks like I'll be acceptable if I work really long hours. Well, that doesn't make sense. Because now my body's suffering, my family's suffering." And it's experiences like that, in awareness, in full awareness, that we go, "Oh, that makes no sense. You know, what do I think I'm chasing for? What do I think I'm gonna get, there's no gold star at the end of this work experience." So all of that is then the enlightenment process of dropping ideas that no longer service really dropping, these apps are no longer doing the job. They originally were meant for. No, that's nice, thanks for sharing. And enlightenment itself can be way understood and seen then as a process to do this upgrade on the mind, basically. And then this whole idea of waking up or being in an awakened state. Yeah, it describes then some form of the state that you're being in that you are aware, that you become aware of being aware. The question is going before that going in that state of not being woken up or not being awake? Is there hope for those who are in that state to actually get out of the state and awake? Is there something for instance, that is helpful that you experience to get them out of the state? That's a really interesting question. In my experience, and if people are listening to your podcast, it's likely they're going to be in this category. But in my experience, something in us has to want this. It's not an intellectual thing. It's not a - it's really not a mind driven thing. Something in us kind of already wakes up and says, hang on. See, like, when I was asking myself all this psychology can't be it, you know, what else is there? That question came from nowhere came from somewhere, definitely before the mind, because the mind thought it was doing the right thing with the psychology. And this question just arose. And I, as I said before, I hear that from a lot of people, this kind of we reach a point where we go, there must be something else, or is this it? Or this can't be it's, it's these kinds of paradigm shift moments, which to me, are the door opening to say, yes, there is another way. Come and look over here. And I think once that has woken up in us, there's then a, yeah, it's like a natural draw towards it. People will often say, I'm just yeah, I'm so drawn to, to know this more to see this more. I know, there's something in it. I really want to recognize it. You know, there's, but yeah, it does seem like there has to be a natural opening. Because, otherwise, it's like trying to push water uphill. It's, you're trying to make something happen at a level? That's not ready to be heard yet, It's not ready to be received yet. Yeah, no, that's also my experience that either you are in that state or you're not. And I still couldn't find figure out ways to accelerate this process in terms of how getting into this awakened state, it looks like either it is there, or it's not. Unfortunately, I would say many people are per standard, or per default in this non awakened state. And by the way, they wouldn't actually watch to this podcast here, particularly this episode, right? They would look at what is this? If there is no opening there, they wouldn't even watch to this content, or they wouldn't be strong, or in general, some of the other content I'm talking about. And so, it's all about is there something for those people who are not in that awakened state? That get them out of it and get them back is, like this experience where they say, Oh, wait, there is. So it's really literally waking up to becoming aware of being aware of what you've mentioned, right? That is, the only way I've seen that so far is with as an opener into this is like extreme suffering, like your friend, when it comes to waking up looks like this is you need this hammer to get you to get you out of this sleeping state. And actually, that that makes me think, Reiner, about people who might, you know, from their in their normal life, they, they might have a normal kind of experience, what we might call normal suffering. I'm not sleeping well enough. And my relationships are suffering. Yeah, I'm struggling with my kids, I'm struggling with my work, you know, there could be that kind of what we might consider normal suffering. And even that could be enough to at least begin to explore and to see, well, what else is there? I mean, because you use some mindfulness approaches, don't you with your work. So that in itself, you know, mindfulness and meditation are much more accepted now than they were before. And they can be little steps towards, because they are, if we're doing that we are naturally being ourselves that present awareness. And we're being present to whatever is here. So that already is opening us to the fact there's something we are, we might not know that intellectually, we might not have that understanding of that's the mechanism that's happening. But that is what's happening, it's kind of starting to look just like nudge the door open a little bit. And starting to create that dis identification from the content, which is the only source of suffering there is. So as we in a mindfulness practice or meditation practice, you are essentially returning to your your already natural state of awareness and becoming present to the objects of thought or rule sensory experience that happening. And as you said before, you know, rather than following the past thoughts or the future thoughts, we're just present here. And so that is great way to begin. If people are open to that, then it's the beginning of that settling down back into yourself. In that space of open awareness, which is so relieving. That's why mindfulness feels good. Because we're back being ourself feels good to be yourself. Yeah, I mean, from,my own experience, I remember that first increased state of awareness. It is like a two edged sword it can become can become very calm. On the other hand, you can also become aware of all this stuff going on, and you can basically get even worse in terms of the sinking sinking mechanisms behind it, right? Yeah, both directions. But let's assume for, for simplicity, that people listening here to this, or watching to this podcast episode, are already in an awakened state with the assumption, otherwise, they wouldn't be listening to this. So that at least a majority. But then my experience when working with many of the tech leaders in the past years, usually when we start baselining, is awareness. So that's what I said, let's actually look at some data here, in dimension, this level of present awareness, LPA. And usually that LPA. So the time is spent over the course of the day that you're fully aware, fully connected to the present moment, not in your mind chatter engaged all the time, it's usually very low, I see people with once you start baselining, and you know how to do it, after two or three weeks, then maybe it is one or 2%. That's it, there's not more, right, and so may now be in this awakened state, which is great. So they become aware of being aware and cool. But unfortunately, their LPA is still kind of low, and for reaping really the benefits or to really progressing in some way in this process of enlightenment, right? If we, instead of saying enlightenment here, basically upgrading the software. Generally, it looks like to me, this is a very tedious process, it can be done systematically, this is what I refer to as measurable mindfulness. Something that I pioneer in the past, I would say, five to seven years, really figuring out how can you use mindfulness to systematically now do this upgrade process, and it works? Actually, there is all kinds of I call them key performance indicators for the mind that you can look at, for instance, your number of thoughts per minute, is a good one, your number of conscious recoveries per day. So there is interesting things you can look look at to quantify this and make this real data. And then of course, once it's data, you can start liking it, you can start improving it. But I think my point was, so far I've seen this is a very tedious process. I'm wondering, is that the default that you see, as well? Or do you see some people just like"click" and then they're going through the roof, and they're basically fully present, let's say LPA, greater, maybe 80% or something like this, that would mean the most time of the day in this highly aware present state. Yeah. Great question. So I think the majority of people I experience have a progressive journey with that clearing up process, with that upgrade process. And to be fair, I don't think that's a terrible thing. So I had quite a significant awakening at the beginning of my journey, and had a few months of complete bliss and freedom, and empty mind. And then the conditioning patterns, the psychological patterns, the the apps, the programming came back in. And because that that enlightenment still had to happen. It was like, I couldn't bypass it. I couldn't shortcut it or circumvent it. And so that's when that process really began for me. And yeah, to me, it looks like it's ongoing in some ways. We seem to get the same kind of patterns of thought, showing up again, and again and again. But it's like each time we see them, there's a little bit more clarity with it, there's a little bit more perspective on it, there's a little bit more space and freedom with it. So that it's it's like each time it happens. It's getting lighter and lighter and lighter as we are that greater awareness, greater space, greater presence with it. Essentially what we're doing is bringing the unconditional love to everything in our system. That is our natural way. Like that's what's happening. And each time we, you know, we have this, whatever we've all got some kind of repeating story. So

mine is:

I don't want to be a disappointment. And that's my

one of story:

self doubt. But yeah, so these stories will come around with different scenery and different characters in the world. But it's like the same lesson coming again and again and again. And now our only job really does yet seem to be to be present with it and, and it lightens and therefore it gets easier, and, therefore, it catches us less we get less hooked by it. And, therefore, it has less impact on our being in the world. Because we're not convinced by any more, we're not compelled by any more. And some will go easily, you know, some thought patterns will just disappear with great ease. And then there just seemed to be some which are a bit more sticky; ones, which were probably collected when we were pretty small. So they've been practiced a longer time. But yeah, so it does seem that enlightenment process does seem to be progressive, and helpfully, because people also know who've shot to the skies, then they just have to do a whole bunch of integration. Anyway, afterwards, which can take the same amount of time. It's like the work has to be done one way or another. So actually progressive is okay. Yeah, I think that's actually a very good point: work has to be done. Either way, it could be that you are this highly aware, state with, let's say, create an 80% LPA present all the time being fully there. But now you in this state, and you become aware of all this still all the garbage in the software, all the bugs, all the inefficiencies and integrating this. Now what you become aware of integrating this information over time, can be very lengthy process. On the other way, once you start this usually my approach, what I recommend I work with people on bumping up LPA and bumping up awareness using measurable mindfulness. It's a very systematic approach. Like in one of my programms, it's called 10x presence. It goes over three months, and it gradually bumps them up from 2%, up to 10% over the three months, it works very well, I was amazed, right? That'swhy I thought let's put this together in a programm, make it available that people can just do it. And it's work. So it is really tedious work. And at that point, you pretty much just bump up awareness, there's not much more you do. It's not upgrading software at this point. It's still raising or cultivating this awareness that is highly needed to do this upgrade process. And then the upgrade process itself usually is also something it takes once you start digging into it. It's an ongoing, continuous process. But you usually you make some good progress on this over some period of time, but it is work. And so it looks like this. Unfortunately, no shortcut work. Yeah, I guess. Well, one thing that might help actually, that occurred to me, and I don't know whether this is something you look into as people too. But one of the most helpful things. So we talked about there before, the awareness is our most fundamental experience, and always has been. And coupled with that the other side of that recognition is the recognition that I'm not therefore a separate self. And that inquiry process into seeing that I'm not a separate self, I am this present awareness, which is not limited to this body. Whenever anybody explores the nature of that awareness, they don't find an edge, they don't find that it ends at the end of my body. We can't even find that it comes from the mind. You know, there's plenty of neuroscientists trying to prove that the brain somehow creates awareness. But it's like an impossible task. How if awareness is needed first before there's even a knowing of a brain? How on earth could a brain create awareness? It's like a closed loop question. So to recognize the nature of awareness that is not separate, its boundless, it's infinite, it's eternal. Therefore, I can't be a separate self, my fundamental nature is not of separation. My fundamental experience is this infinite beingness. And so that shift and you can come at it from that angle, either the recognition of the nature of awareness or the recognition of the absence of a separate self who's responsible here, there is we find no doer, we find no chooser, we find no decider. And the recognition of that also really helps with that ongoing enlightenment process. Because really the imagined control, the imagined responsibility actually limits the process of enlightenment, when we think I've got a job to do here, and I can do it and roll my sleeves up and get it done, that actually limits the unravelling of it. So the more we recognize, there is no separate doer here. Life is doing this body and this voice and these actions. There's no separate Helen, who's responsible for any of that. And so that is something that to be fair does, I think accelerate that process, because then there's an absence of attachment, there's an absence of identification. There's an absence of trying to control which is ease. Yeah. Absolutely. I think the way I was looking at it is also in saying, thinking about it in a way that okay, there is some time - during this process, it can be still helpful to, to work with the mind, upgrade software, and basically getting to a certain point and stabilizing increasing awareness. It looks like this is something worthwhile but on the other hand, is also what you're referring to at the end is transcending the mind and its limitations. Becoming aware of the selfless part of this right? The egoic mind at the end of the day is just something that eventually you look through it, and then you draw the line. And and that seems to be - it seems to be helpful. Eventually, it will go into this into this direction, potentially could also be applied earlier. So far, I think it is probably something that inevitably will happen eventually, if you're making progress there too. Sooner or later to transcend the mind and its limitations. But yeah, I think at the end of the day, I think bumping up awareness and stabilizing this state of being and this aware, present stat leads to those things sooner or later. Yeah, I think there's one thing to really say to that, which is that we can really trust in our in our own process in our own journey. So I don't know about you right now. But I've seen for myself and for people I work with that. The next right thing comes just as you need it. So if whatever your next ready for, you'll find the right book, the right teacher, the right guide, the right tool that you know, whatever it is you need, it seems to come and all the more easily from the state that you're talking about there. The more aware we are, the more we are that awareness knowingly, the more easily that next thing can come for us. That's going to be the right next step. In our process. Yeah. Good. So maybe share a little bit. So you also also have this book, where it's exactly about this topic here. We were just talking about. And I'm also curious then on the new work with others in your role as a coach, mentor? How what is your approach, then maybe share first little bit about the book, but then your approach and how you work with people to assist them or supportive services? Yeah, thank you. Yeah, so the book, One, first book out of two. So this is book one, the Complete Book of Awakening, the next one is going to be the Complete Book of Enlightenment. So this first book is very much focused on what we've talked about here in terms of the recognition of our essential nature of awareness. And in doing that, we look to who we are awareness, as well as looking to what we're not, which is or not, essentially, anyway, we're not the thoughts. We're not the feelings. We're not the body, we're not the separate self. We're not the job, the money, you know, we look at all of that stuff. And then at the end of the book, we bring it all back together to see that although we've kind of falsely said that's not who we are, we come to see that it's all of who I am. And it's a very practical book. It's very structured step by step like a workshop in a book. So, you move through it, exploration after exploration. We give context we give guidance, we give pointers. We share others experiences who've read the book, in the during the publishing during the development process. So it gives people a really held by the hand journey through it. And people have said that, you know, they feel like they're being walked through it step by step, and that when questions come up, they're very often answered in the next chapter. So it really takes people on that deepening journey. And really so that you know, for yourself who you are. If ever we're trying to rely on somebody or something else to tell us that we feel off balance, we feel off centre, we feel ungrounded, we feel insecure. Once you know for yourself who you really are, once you're awakened to that, that you really are, then everything gets easier, everything settles down. There was a lot of relief in that recognition, sometimes tears sometimes laughter, but there was a lot of relief. And so we're really passionate about this. Yeah, as we said at the start, this book is very much normal world's not couched in any kind of spiritual or religious language. It's very much just for anybody to pick up and move through that. Move through that journey. And if wanted, we have courses to do as well that support you know, if you want somebody alongside you who's gonna say, right this week, come and read these chapters, and let's talk about it, then we've got that option, too. So I know that, like, for me, I'm terrible at doing yoga unless I'm going to class. So some people find with the book, they're terrible at reading the book unless they come to either a self study course or to a to a book group. But yeah, so that's the the awakening part, which we've written about so far. And yeah, international bestseller when it launched. So we were we were so delighted. We were up there with Eckhart Tolle, and other such people on Amazon. Like, that was a that was a beautiful day. Yeah, loving hearing the feedback from everybody. Yeah, it seems like this, this book could be a really good resource to support in this process. And then as you said, yeah, there is people have different learning styles. And for some, it could be good to get a little bit more support, in addition, and it looks like then you're this type of support. So we'll make sure to point out resources here as part of the show notes that people can actually look it up. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, no, this is great. And now but also, you mentioned this was interesting, also, that you're planning something new coming up with a parenting programm. For me, the first time I heard about this parenting then is it okay, there's kids, taking care of kids, sounds for me, this analogy when you are a leader, and then you have your teams, right? They're not necessarily your kids, but actually sometimes it feels like this. Yeah. Taking care of them. But what got you more into this and maybe share also a little bit what this programm is about and why you're doing it, and where people can find out more about it as well. Yeah, thanks, Reiner. And yeah, I'm a parent of currently a 16, and 14 year old. And I mean, actually, having just been talking about what can accelerate your journey: kids. Kids can accelerate your journey. They are amazing teachers, they are amazing at showing us where our programming isn't updated yet. So they this programm that I'm going to be running for parenting is very much on the Enlightenment side of the exploration, we will be grinding into the recognition of of our self awareness. But its emphasis in this exploration of this programme is going to be on the enlightenment of the conditioning on the understanding of why I react to my kids in that way, why I behave in this way with them, why I keep having this repeating pattern of relationship dynamic with them, or perhaps with a partner. So it's going to be very much about revealing for ourselves, all the confused apps that are running in the system and that are fighting with each other for attention and air time in which are therefore creating some what looks like pretty unhelpful behaviours out in the world and with our children. And absolutely, like you say, relevant for leadership too, because most people in the world are still running off their childhood programming, which is why yeah, sometimes team members do behave like children, because that's still the fundamental driver of the system. They've also not upgraded their operating system. So the focus is about parenting. But if you're a leader as well, this will just supercharge your leadership really. And it's going to be a really deep programm. It's a small number, we're going to have a maximum of 15 people. So it's going to be very close and intimate, and therefore very deep and therefore very transformational. Because we want that for people, we want people - If you are interested to be able to go to those depths and really see what's been holding them back to see what's been creating these unhelpful patterns. And to do that upgrade process, like we talked about, sitting in that presence of awareness to see and understand it and love it and go, Oh, my goodness, well, that that programm makes so much sense based on on past experience, but it's just not what I need. Now. It's time for that upgrade. So yeah, we're super excited about it. And it's a six month programm. So yeah, hence it being quite a deep dive, and it's just gonna be amazing. It's gonna be Yeah, very connected. Very nourishing, very healthy. Yes. Thanks for sharing my context here. And of course, here as well, we'll put in some links. I was interested to explore it a little bit further. Yeah. I mean, it seems like there's a good good point you made earlier in talking about this, the software upgrade process, and there is like, the kids are there, they're actually, I can confirm that finding out those, this basically, poor programming of some of your apps, it looks - And I think this is the interesting part. People can say now so what, whatever, I don't have to do this upgrade. I'm perfectly fine where I am. I know people actually they think about it this way. If I would upgrade my mind. Like, let's keep it is good, my work results are great, I'm delivering output, I am getting stuff done. There's no need to upgrade all is fine, right? But it looks like eventually, it's not an option to not upgrade, because then people around you and it's go back to the kids. It will repeat they will the patterns that come up the struggles you have with them or with your partner who whatever, it always comes back. It's never going away. As you become aware of the situation and then start this upgrade process. So is that the case? So do you think like if people say I don't want to upgrade that actually, they have no choice, they have to upgrade eventually. Otherwise, they're stuck in this endless loop? Yeah. And in my experience, as well, if we don't move towards that upgrade process, it will come and hit us in the face at some point. It will make us look, my friend often says I'll be hit by the two by four of the universe if I don't actively go towards stuff. So yeah, it really looks to me like we are supporting ourselves with supporting everyone around us, when we actively move towards and get curious and inquire. And if at any point in your day, you're reacting with frustration or irritation or stress, or any of the stuff that we would count as yucky or unwanted that's evidence of a mind ready for upgrade. And yeah, as you say, it will just keep coming around we will keep receiving the message will be we'll keep being asked to look until we do and yeah so yeah, definitely recommend that the act of moving towards rather than waiting to life brings you to your knees. Yeah, and I think that's the thing so it looks like there is no choice; upgrade is is needed, there is no way to get around it. It could be - I think it could be more smoother, maybe not even say easygoing process, but more into this proactive approach looks like can have several advantages right? Because why do I need to go through all this stuff again and again and then these things usually they bring suffering and bring my experience is always increasing it's not decreasing. And so sufferings increasing while you're ignoring those signs to upgrade. Sometimes these signs they're really painful. I mean, looking at the body like people get really sick, right? It starts with - it's what I've observed in the past decades, right. People get a little bit sick and then the thing gets usually paid stress based on negative thoughts self doubts, worry all this kind of stuff with the mind likes to procure negative and and then it feeds these type of symptoms that are growing bigger turning into some diseases and stuff gets worse. And then the question is, do you really want to go down this route? Is that really needed? My experience, it's not needed, but it requires then going more into this what you mentioned, proactive route, right? Yeah. Because there is I mean, control is still an illusion, but it leads, it feels like you have little bit more maybe control in figuring out how this upgrade process is shaping out for you and maybe avoiding some of that stuff that is not really needed. Yeah, so what came up for me was that, Reiner, is acknowledging the courage sometimes that it takes for us to do that proactive move. Because if everything generally does seem okay, why should I change and we don't get the carrot, we can't see what's on the other side of the process. So we haven't even got the motivation of, oh, yes, look how my life is gonna be if I do this process, there has to be such trust, that it is the direction to go in and that it is going to lead to better of everything, which in my experience, it is it just gets better and better, the more we lighten. So yeah, it's it does take courage, though, to take those first steps and go, Okay, I'm going to try something else. Nothing else has worked. Nothing else has solved this. So I'm going to, I'm going to look in a different place. Yeah, I'm going to try a different approach. So yeah, very cool. Yeah. And I think the carrot and the stick analogy, it looks like sometimes people just prefer to stick. It needs to be - the suffering needs to be painful enough so that you actually start really actively looking to upgrade. But yeah, maybe some listeners today on this episode, they took something good out here in terms of practical, practical output, and maybe you're now motivated. And after realising that the upgrade process is not optional. At some point, you have to go through the through it. Of course, you can try to go never throw it, but it's small. But if you and this literally isn't like programmers, and people in tech, they know this concept of programming of a loop. And then it's basically an endless loop. I think if some notice that they're actually stuck in this loop, then, why not get unstuck? Yeah, brilliant. Being being getting out of this could be a good thing. And then exploring what's behind that loop? And what what comes next? And of course, there will be more challenges, but wareness is guidance can be in a good way. Yeah. Maybe one last question, since we're running also a little bit out of time now, for people who are now in this early stage of this awakening process. Again, they wouldn't probably otherwise listening to the show. But let's say, let's assume someone listens now is in this early stage. What kind of practical tip would you give to them? Very simple one. Which is to - just during the course of your day, pause and check. Am I aware? And to genuinely look, in response to the question. So not for it to become like a mantra that you just trip off the tongue and it doesn't really mean anything. But if you've got just a moment in your day, and you're pausing, and perhaps they already have that habit if they're working with you anyway. But use that pause to ask and genuinely look, am I aware to recognize that fact of awareness? Because every little drop of that is incredibly impactful. Very good. Yeah. I like that and it's basically if you're doing that if you're pausing for a moment and ask yourself this question it's like I refer to a similar exercise called a check in checking in with yourself can be 30 seconds, 60 seconds, pausing but becoming aware and I think this is these are great ways to at the end of the day increasing bumping up your level of present awareness. They help you to actually remind you that I am aware, and let us now - what does it mean what can I do? What are things that could make sense now for me or things I could do things I should not be doing any longer and then eventually into this upgrade again, so very great. Because it doesn't take a lot of time. I know people are busy with all this stuff. But I think that question you can pretty much ask yourself in where anytime? Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Very good. So I would say and Thanks, Helen, for your being on this episode. I think there's a lot of cool actionable stuff that came out of it. As said, we'll share some of the links to the book, the programm, and so on, and possibly your blog and a few other resources in the show notes. Possibly in the future, we may continue the conversation when the second book comes out and when maybe explore this also a bit further. Yeah, amazing. Thank you. Thanks for having me on. Great conversation. Thanks.