It is unfortunate that many of us are not prioritizing our health and not investing enough in our own bodies to improve performance or even the quality of life. We often wait for the doctor to fix us up with pharmaceuticals when we are finally truly ill. Performance optimization is helpful in many areas, not only for leaders, but everyone can benefit from integrating biohacks and performance routines into their daily schedule.
In this interview, Eduard de Wilde, CEO of Livehelfi and the founder of NoordCode, join us to share his experiences and insights around digital transformation, body awareness, leadership performance, and biohacking ripple effect in the workplace. Are you interested to learn more about these topics?
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Hi, this is Reiner, founder of the mindful leader, and host of this podcast, Mindful Leader podcast. And I'm happy here today to have Eduard de Wilde here in joining us. And talking, talking about some really cool topics on biohacking, but also digital transformation on how to tie all those things together. I think this will be a really interesting discussion. So I'm looking forward to it. And we'll see where it gets us. So I'm always open to see how things are unfolding. But first, a few words about Eduard. So I know Eduard now for quite some time. And basically by accident around when I was researching actually, to be honest, when researching few years back, how do I get my bulletproof stuff here to Germany. I stumbled upon his company, so he is CEO of Livehelfi, a company focusing on a lot of good basically ingredient supplements around nootropics, on the biohacking scene that you can that you want to get but otherwise hard to get a handle on here in Europe. So bulletproof is an example. And so this is when I first got in touch with the company and learned about Eduard as well. And it seems there is also a lot of common interests around the biohacking in particularly but also around supplements, micronutrients, a lot of other cool stuff, but also tech around taxing but then getting got to know Eduard a little bit better. This also is not just live healthy, and he will share a little bit more detail what Livehelfiy is doing. He's also founder of NoordCode, basically producing actually high quality food, food items with ingredients that are sourced with highest quality and purity in mind. For him, for instance, coffee is an example, right ,having really good quality coffee. And that NoordCode is to win. And I'm a big fan of the of the brand and using it as well. But going back, there's a lot of other other interesting things. He's also one of the first bulletproof coaches and he's also coaching leaders and entrepreneurs and interest other people, who are interested to have more energy, perform better, get healthier, and so on. And last but not least, to mention his also his background in digital transformation as a digital strategist. So that's why it's a really interesting combination of different areas. But at the end, they all fit together. So welcome, welcome again Eduard, and maybe share a little bit about your story and some of the context I was providing. Yeah, thank you for for inviting me. And you know, the,it's, it seems a little bit weird, the combination of selling supplements and being a digital strategist, but maybe that's good to tell a little bit of my background so that it makes sense in the end. So I used to work for a consultancy company and in the Netherlands, I started my career there. And from 1994 I focused my, you know, my expertise on creating ecommerce strategies for companies already in 1994, at the moment when the internet started to appear in the world. And in 2000, I was at the, you know, just becoming partner in the company. And at that very moment, I went to come home with friends and, and that's that's in the heart of the of the jungle. There's a high risk of malaria. And so I took the Prophylaxe Lariam. And there were many, many side effects appearing in a lot of people, but I didn't know that at the time. So I just took the Lariam and, and I had one of the most free side effects. So you have all kinds of most horrible scenarios and people even committed suicide after taking those pills, but I got a severe panic disorder the moment I arrived back in the Netherlands, and that made it very hard to perform as a partner in a strategy consultancy company. And it took me six years, and I tried all medical therapies that you can imagine 40 I counted 40 of those. But that didn't work out. So in the end, I decided to stop as a partner. And because it was not possible anymore to, you know, to it, because it's a fairly demanding job as you can imagine. And then I, you know, the psychiatrist that was treating me, he said, "okay, Eduard, you just get used to it, you know, you need to get used to it, and there is no way that you will be better again, because your, your brain is damaged by the, by the medicine, and you just have to learn to live with it." And, and that was not the right message for me because I didn't accept it. I did you know, I was 35 in that time. And I couldn't accept that I had to live with the you know, the panic disorder because it's, it's grading so much tension that you only can work for a few hours per day, then you become very, very tired of it so so that was the start of my journey into health. And I didn't know anything about health, you know, just as a regular person, you go to the doctor, if you have an issue and then you you you expect the doctor to solve that issue. And then someone mentioned Marxism and Marxism is one of the you know, the big man in the Paleo scene. And he wrote the book the Primal Blueprint, so I started experimenting with the things that he was laying out in his book and especially changing the food intake so I went to local Whole Foods. That already changed my life immensely. And so I thought, okay, if this is what lifestyle can do with you, then maybe I should start exploring more of it. And so I started to listen to all kinds of podcasts, especially the American Thought Leaders because they were they were ahead of the European Thought Leaders if you, if you look at the health, you know, the older of the things of good influential health just by your lifestyle. So I listened to both and to Timothy Ferriss and Ben Greenfield and then I also listened to the podcast of Dave Asprey. And then I learned about biohacking level. Okay, that'sthat's cool, biohacking is cool:
experimenting, you're doing experiments on yourself, measuring things. Also the technology part of it, I found it fascinating. And then I discovered that I could improve, you know, with each hack, I could create, you know, just a small improvement and another improvement and, and at a certain moment, I thought, okay, when I look back, so it took me you know, 15 years to come to that conclusion. If I look back, I'm in a better shape now than I was before I went to come home and before I get the panic disorder, and I was so excited about it that I thought "okay, but then if that's the situation, I want to do more in it and and maybe I should switch careers." And then, you know, I was I was using the bulletproof products, I was importing them from the United States and all the kinds of products for that. Okay. It doesn't makes sense that all Europeans import those products by themselves, you know, this is a huge waste of money and effort and because I was into e commerce strategies and digital transformation I thought okay maybe I can combine my two interests becauseI, you know, as a consultant you're always dependent on the company what they will implement or not. And this way you I thought okay now I can do it myself and I can show how, how it should be done and if I make a mistake then it's you know, it's my the consequences are for me so I decided to import the bulk of products to set up my own ecommerce company and that took off by the way. So in the, in the first years I combined it with my job as a digital strategy consultants and then after a certain moment I, you know, I had to work seven days a week because you know, you have to earn a living and to build the company so that was quite a tough time and after a few years I was able to say okay, now we can switch careers and focus fully on building live healthy and after they're building NoordCode. So that's my background. Very cool and so there was at that point there was a necessity right when you when this when this happened and so this was probably the turning point and gave you this focus and ability. And yeah, I've heard that a lot and it's similar in my, in my case as well usually it has to be something that gets you out of the way thing right, out of the comfort zone there is was some pain, suffering, whatever it is, that triggers attention and then all of a sudden once you get them, whatever it is, then you get into in this case it was figuring out how do I feel better, how do I get better? That's a good starting point right? And then yeah, the journey is usually tough to get through, but like it's it seems like now with Livehelfi. It's been around for quite how many year is it there? When did you found it? Yes. Six years now. Yeah, so maybe fair fair new trade about what you offer now and just to get a sense of the press, I mean, it's it's like when you go to the side for my own experience like so many good stuff the good things there, right? This is candy shop basically for but healthy, healthy stuff right. But on where it is now? Yeah, so we added quite a few brands, so after bulletproof we added natural stacks and eventually also neuro hacker collective, you know, like this is also one of our main brands, you know, it's it's I consider it the world's voice amongst the nootropics. They are very expensive but also have very high quality and well-researched products. But also now the regular things like MCT oils and, you know, the collagen powders. It's, so we've we focused on innovative brands with proven high quality and, and most of them are not, you know, not available in Europe so so one of our biggest promises is that we search especially the American market for innovative brands, because they know that there are more possibilities in the United States to implement to to market new products than in Europe because Europe is quite conservative. And and that makes it makes it hard for European startups because you have all those health regulations and that's, you know, it's good to have those health regulations but also it one way or the other. It puts a brake on innovation. And that's that's a bit of a shame. Yeah. So to summarize, basically, for those who for those listeners, who may have heard the term nootropics are some of the things for supplements the first time I think the good simple simplified summary would be if you start getting into biohacking to optimize your health your body energy levels resilience whatever it is for whatever motivation, there is certain micronutrients products that can help and I think Livehelfi at the end of the day is very convenient way. I mean it's convenience right so that you can go there you don't have to worry about importing something from outside outside of Europe which can be a hassle I've been through it myself right but makes it really easy and get it delivered and then you can use those products so so I think this is so this is a pretty good solution. But you actually went a step further right because now with NoordCode. You decided, well there seems to be some products here that is just missing from the from the portfolio. What was the then the motivation for NoordCode? Yeah there are, you know, this there are a few reasons. One is of course the opportunistic reason because if you see that was an opportunity to market your own products and not being dependent on suppliers you know, especially you know the American supply chain you never know what they are up to and so as a reseller you are dependent on on their actions, endorsements and their strategies and and if you have your own brand then you know you're in full control. So that's, that's one reason. And another one that's more now from a sustainable perspective I thought okay they have some good products in the United States but that many products we still can produce also in Europe and and why should we fly products from the United States to Europe while we can read them here ourselves and, for example, MCT oil with the highest quality MCT oil in Europe and and the ghee you know in the collagen and the coffee. So I decided to source them in Europe to offer, you know, a sustainable alternative, you know, at least the same quality as the American supplies but even more, you know, it can be even more higher quality so that's you know, Europe is a very good place to source products for us. Absolutely. And how many different products do you have developed by now? Yeah, we have, so we have the MCT oils, we have chocolate, collagen, ghee. We have a very nice keto bar, vegan keto bar, I'm very happy with that one as well. And we are now in in the face of finishing the development of nootropic. And we will market that I think the end of the year, I hope, and then that and I'm pretty excited about that one as well. Good, I think some some listeners may think about who haven't heard about biohacking yet or not very deep yet in just getting started. Why the heck should I get coffee there I could just go to my local coffee for that. Maybe maybe share just as an example. I think coffee is a good example why it is a good choice or smart choice actually to get NoordCode coffee or other brand that you can get there. Yeah, I must admit you know, there are some very good quality, high quality brands also available in Europe, of course. But what I want you know that it was based on the on the bulletproof you know, the, the marketing of David Asprey of his bulletproof coffee was because there are many, many coffees that are toxic, causing all kinds of issues with people, you know, you you can feel it. If you drink the wrong coffee, then you can become jittery, you know, and you have the urge to drink more and more and more, you know, that's for me the sign of coffee with a low quality. And the biohackers are very keen on getting the best products to put in the body because you know that that's what they aim for. So what I wanted to do is to give them an alternative for the bulletproof coffee, because that is testable mold and toxins. Okay, there are some high quality coffees available, but you don't know if they are tested on mold and toxins. And I made sure that I found a supplier with clean coffee, you know that I could test and I did test it. So that I'm at least sure that this coffee is clean, and that you don't have to jittery feelings and that you don't need to drink more and more of it. And that's, you know, that's and also, I'm very happy to the taste is also very, very good. Yeah, absolutely. I enjoy it as well. And so you can see with small, small choices like what coffee, you drink what you put in your body, right? Yeah, big outcome. Because I think that's really the one of the principles behind biohacking is awareness, food awareness to really think about become aware what is it that you actually put in your body, and it could be things you think you eat, but it can be other things as well like shampoo, perfume, all kinds of, or even washing detergent that you use for laundry, right? There's all those all those things around you in the environment that potentially somehow make it into your body, right through the skin, through the mouth through wherever they can enter right in, some of those things are unfortunately, toxic and toxicity. There's so much science, out there, when you start looking into this has dramatically increased in the past 20 to 30 years, right. And so this is an example of coffee, having clean coffee, no toxins in it, no mold. This little, basically, this would be considered a biohack in that's, in that sense, right? This would be considered a biohack to just get good coffee, and instead of other one, and this can already, as you mentioned can have a big impact. Yeah. It's, it's really funny, it's it sounds so simple, that you know that you have to be aware of what you put in your body. But the effect when I talk to other people, I see that there is a disconnect between how they feel and how they perform. And how aware they are what they put in the body. So what what food choices they make. So they don't make that connection. And if you talk about them, about it with them, it's okay it's a biochemical factory, your body and, you know, you are putting fuel in it and and, and all kinds of other building blocks in it. So if you, if you don't put in the building blocks, you can't expect that, you know, the factory will perform at its best. You know and and and then certainly the moment that that people realize that yes, indeed, you know, everything that is in my body, everything out operates, is affected by what I do with it, and how I treat it and what I put in it, then they, you know, they they will become more careful about what choices to make. And already, you know, that simple way of thinking makes a huge difference for many, many people. Yeah, and that is, and that is really awareness, goes back to this awareness. And, and I've seen that in also my own experience when working with tech leaders, business leaders. Many of them they're so focused on these business objectives. KPIs key performance indicators, delivery, whatever needs to get delivered so on they're so focused, they have so much when it comes to awareness what's happening to make sure this gets delivered whatever product it is, digital product or something else, right, but there is an effort isn't focus there, but they completely neglect also in awareness their own body. So that they're not aware of what's going on inside their body they feel this is the symptoms but since the awareness is so limited, the symptoms have to become really strong, right? So otherwise they don't even pay attention the body usually sells to symptoms right it sends little triggers and maybe there could be some tension, it starts with this little thing and a few aches right or as you said earlier with the coffee a little jittery, right? So there is the body sends the signals but you have to become aware to actually notice them. And actually I realize I think what you said is a is a good analogy this body is basically this factory, right, and the ingredients that you put in there the body will figure out what to do with it, right? But if you put bad stuff in, it's a very slim chance you get good stuff out. Usually you get bad in, bad out, right? And yes yes and you know it's all also about energy and so your your body puts the energy first in the systems that it needs to survive you know you have to have the limbo system, and then the labrador system, you know, and the human system. And the human system is the last system that the body will give the energy to because it first needs to take care you know to make sure that you stay alive that your your body functions and then you want to focus on be able to fight and flight, and to have sex, and to look for food. But the leaders of companies, you know, they are in the mental game. And if you don't care for your body, then you don't have enough energy to make sure that your mental processes are in place. So you first have to take care for yourself in order to be able to perform on a mentally, you know, top level and and that's what what most business leaders that I know are not aware of. And the moment that they start to change their lifestyle, then they see that they can perform better you know in their work environment. Good point, it's mean leadership performance at the end of the day, when you look at it there's two components one side is what you just said is the body right? They need to be able, in particularly, as leaders there is a high demand for energy, cognitive energy, mental energy because you're working not just maybe regular hours you may work around pretty much around the clock every day, maybe even weekends, right? Yeah, the body needs the brain. Brain is using 20% of your energy and it needs it constantly 24 seven and so if there's not enough energy there it then leads to all kinds of problems and that impact quality at the end of the day the quality of decisions, will make poor decisions right? Or you get tired decision fatigue is one of the symptoms usually happens later in the day. It's basically there's no energy anymore. At some point there is not enough electrons to move around in the body. But yeah, I mean this is a paradox right and leaders particularly, when in general not just leaders righ? I mean, my my background I am a trained engineer and if you do programming, right and it requires a lot of mental mental power. Yeah, yeah and then just putting in some sugary drinks or coffee is not is not going to do the trick right. You have to be smart in terms of what it is that the body needs, then to to actually help help the body as good as possible. I think maybe that's that's maybe our job is as a right is maybe just to make sure that we feed the right stuff in there and let the body figure out the rest. Yeah. Yeah. And and it's amazing. The effect it can have on on your energy levels. Because you know, if you are in a demanding job, then you want to have that energy all day long. You know, and for example, you you mentioned the sugar, sugary drinks, you know if you, if you drink and snack all the time with high sugar food, you know, then you have all those sugar peaks and lows. And, and that will make you lithologic you know the you become tired at a lows. So, then you make the bad decisions. You feel tired after lunch, at 5pm you need a snack in order to be able to perform till 6, 7pm. And, and if you make simple changes in your in your food intake and make sure that you have a constant sugar level in your blood. And you can see what what a tremendous effect that has on on the way how you can perform How you been, can, you know, stay present during the day, and yeah, and I also if you are a leader in a company, I think that most leaders are not aware of the law they have in the company of people are looking up to them and are copying their behavior. And so if you if you want not only to perform yourself the best way possible, but also to make sure that your company is performing well. You know, if you lead by example, you know, then your employees will, not per definition, but they were are more inclined to follow you. And you will benefit from it as well. Because you know, the people in your company they they do all the work and and there are so many hidden costs of people you know that are not burned out. But you know, at the point of becoming burned out, you know that the cost of those of those employees that that is tremendous. And if you just can improve their behavior by showing how it is possible to to change just by improving your lifestyle, then I think everybody will benefit also, you're also the company that you are leading. So absolutely, and I think this is something we can maybe now go also a little bit deeper in. I think leading by example, is a good thing. So if a leader actually demonstrates this capability and quality, to properly take care of his or her mind and body, right and this will have significant impact on performance and quality of decisions. All the stuff we talked about earlier is clear that is a huge improvement that can be done someone who is not doing it is stressed out low energy levels and all of the sudden converting a person like this into leader with mental clarity full power, right? The, just think about the productive outcome. It's more than doubling I don't have I mean, this would be interesting studies to look at how much we can double trust performance by taking someone takes proper care of him or herself. But now the interesting part is now if this now has this ripple effect in the workspace and there the thing is that in the past years right, when I was digging more into mindfulness and its impact on the workplace. I just actually did a podcast ago a few a few weeks with Daniel Lieber who is leading founder of Wevolve, the company around mindfulness coaching for workplace, and they did some study with a large ecommerce company in Berlin and they were showing the impact on just mindfulness training that means when you take proper care of your mind for employees and the it's also sustainable impact that you they were showing in different dimensions like let's say focus is one, right. I mean, you can imagine what focus can have on the outcome on the bottom line if there is more focus right? Negative thoughts negativity points down also to toxic work environments reduced significantly so they were showing these results but this is just the mind part. Interestingly, would be now maybe this could be the topic we'll go in a little bit more now around digital transformation. But now look at it in terms of health transformation at the workplace, right? People mean there is a high rate usually have know that big companies like SAP, they have something like in house index, but it's at the end relatively simple, where they look how often people get sick. But every time someone gets sick, there's a, there's a huge loss in productivity. And so the question would be, then I think nobody really has looked into this, at this point, at least I'm not that aware of, on what can be done to really encourage this combination of healthy body, healthy mind and healthy body, there's a lot of work that can be leveraged in the sphere of the biohacking, right. And then see what actually happens to the bottom line in, in, especially in large companies. I mean, this could be I mean, this could be huge, right? I mean, if mindfulness alone mind training mind, basically training the mind, as these huge increases, validated from also different companies, we experiment with this. So it's huge, huge improvement there, I would think on the health side, should be even more, right, and then think about combining them. There are there are studies that calculate the, you know, the hidden costs of people who not perform well, because they are too tired, and almost burnt out. And so the business case is immense. If you if you can lower, you know, it's, I think it's almost 40% of, of the missing potential of your labor force, it's almost 40%. So if you can, if you can lower that, you know, and, and the program the program to, to help your your people to improve their lifestyle, you know, it's, it's nothing compared to the impact it has on the bottom line. And just by lowering the numbers, and you know, when I talk to companies, and I asked them how much they spend on, on health, you know, it's most of most of the time, it's, it's the human resource department. It has a very small budget, and then they stimulate people to take a yoga class or, you know, offer different courses, and it's, you know, it's, it's so minimal, and, and then I think, okay, if you if you consider the business decision, and it's not only the responsibility of the HR department, but also, you know, from a business perspective, and then you calculate the, the profit that you can gain, just by making your, your people more healthy and, and more productive, then, you know, the potential budget to invest in those programs, you know, it can be 100,000 folds. And so it's more a strategic decision, in my, in my opinion, to invest in those programs than a human resource, you know, kind of be nice. Be nice for your people kind of decision. Yeah, and I mean, companies invest in all kinds of stuff. I mean, in all kinds of, for instance, research is an example, right? Large companies would like to invest in research, innovation type of things. But usually those budgets are all also relatively small, right? If you just set for health, I mean, I would say like if they would offer that something like a yoga class, or some meditation, meditation class or so things like this, and of course, some some of the more modern companies that I've seen that when I saw when I moved here to Berlin five years ago, I've seen there was not much going on in these areas at all a little bit, right? And then I've seen some increase in the past years, for sure, that part, these are all little miniscule steps. Then when I compare this with the Silicon Valley, most of my times they're way more advanced when it comes to this, right. So they, I mean, I give you an example at Yahoo, for instance, we had our own dream right? Now it was and there was lots of programs there it was, it's a typical dream with all those exercise programs and things you can think about from starting with yoga but with all kinds of other fitness challenges, boot camp, whatever you name it. That was available to all all employees. Of course, there's a cost that not every company can can do it like this right? But at the end of return is immense. Right. At the end, what happened was and then of course, later on, they introduced healthy food and free lunch even right? When Marissa Meyer came. this was one of the first things as an example, in the food quality was definitely decent, right? So it's, I would say, better than what you would get otherwise, if you were to die and give lunch outside, right? So it was good, good quality. And so people wouldn't actually want to leave the campus. But they would stay there long. And because they had everything they needed around, keeping them give giving energy. Having a pleasant environment and all those kinds of things. Yeah. And he in Germany, I don't think it's yet that advanced. It's it's moving up for sure. Yeah. But the cost for for this ride, I think similar view, it's small, it's miniscule, but you have to think now the problem is, how would they go? I mean, what's, what's your take on this? Because let's say, let's say we have here, a few bigger companies in Berlin. And then let's say one of them says, Oh, yeah, they've watched to our video here, podcasts, and they got inspired and says, man, this is cool. We need to do it, but how would they actually what do you think? How could they approach it? Because it's not straightforward. I, I would suggest that the, you know, the, the leaders, the Board of Directors, that they first start by themselves, you know, for themselves. And when, when they see it, they will believe it, and when they will believe it, they've, you know, then it's a fairly simple calculation that, okay, if, if I feel the difference? What difference does it make, if I can convince 1000 people to do the same. And that, you know, that's, that's, that's, I think, the main issue that if you are the leader of a company, and you have to disconnect between what you do with your body and your performance, then you think, okay, it's just a hobby of the HR department, because you don't believe in it. So you first have to start to believe yourself to, to become aware of it, you do it yourself, no, and then the rest will follow quite easily. And otherwise, it's, it's, you know, then then you you have to make all kinds of study documents to convince people with numbers and and, and, and if you, if you're, if you're not a believer, then it doesn't make sense. It's a waste of effort. So first, start with yourself. That's that would be my suggestion. Yeah. And that, that makes one so that makes, for me, that makes a lot of sense. And, but that is unfortunately, one of the problems that this awareness, investing in your own body to improve performance, improve quality of life, right and become more healthier, and then you could do a lot of more stuff. It's the potential is huge, but my opinion it's usually it's, it's not a priority, right? So it's, it's something that is so low in priority, right? And then obviously, if it's that low in a priority for leader, but then the problem is obviously it will not be a priority for the employees right. So to basically they will not get this message is important, and then nothing is going to happen, right? And yeah, I think from our perspective, raising awareness is one of the things we can do and ensure what's possible but I think the this getting a more proactive mindset is the foundation right to think as a leader think more proactively when it comes to your own mental and also your body basic body health right now to any thoughts on how to increase productivity in leaders. I don't know. I mean, that's I, if you're a good leader than then productivity is one of your core competencies. Yes, yes. For achieving the numbers, right for looking at what the roadmap is okrs and all that stuff, then you will be proactive, for sure. But this acts for you. right? Yes, but it's heard. It's hard because, you know, those, those leaders are also off alpha people, you know, on the highest level of the monkey, you know, walk, and they, many of them are not very open for changing their behavior because I think that their behavior makes them possible to reach the level where they are acting. And if you talk about lifestyle, many, many people become very defensive, if you if you talk about changing their habits, because they, it's also it gives them comfort, you know, it's,, it's part of their life. And it gives them you know, most unhealthy foods give a lot of satisfaction, because that's why they are created because people like them, like to eat them. And, and the amount that they have to give up that they, they become defensive. So they want, they want to improve their lifestyle, but it should be very, very easy. And but that's that's the biggest problem because changing your lifestyle is not easy. You know, this? It could be it's that simple. Like what you mentioned at the beginning, just changing the coffee, right? I mean, it's a little example. Yeah, that quick, already such a big impact. And it's not just one thing. But if you do 10 of those things in a systematic way there is over time and you learn you get better. Getting started is a key challenge. And then maybe then, let's say someone actually got started and is doing this for a few months sees these tremendous improvements basically doubled. energy levels, stress down, as well, because of this neurotransmitters, there's more neurotransmitters that work effectively. Maybe that person started in parallel on some mind management practices around mindfulness meditation, and so on. So you see all these huge improvements. But now, that person says, okay, great, I'm convinced, let's do it, right. But how would they then just as a final thought on this, how could they then actually getting started to apply these things to the workplace? I mean, this is still like creativity required, and there is no real providers at this point specializing in this as far as I know, of what would be your take on? Yeah, I don't know if there are no, nope, oh, five star, you know, at least in the Netherlands, there are many, many, many companies that provide those services, and maybe they are not as sophisticated, you can't, you can't consider them biohackers most programs are superficial they are. So I can think about designing, you know, a program, where you do a pilot with, you know, with a group of people and, and, and let them be the example of how you how you can change things and, and also make it very quantified, quantified, because now that that's in most of the programs that I that I observe is that the quantification of things is lacking. And, and if you, you know, if, for example, if you give 20 people an Oura ring, and you educate them, how to interpret the visuals, and how to improve the underlying KPIs that are showing in the overall dashboard. Then you mentioned things about sleep, how to optimize your sleep, meal timing, how to exercise, you know, because that all is reflected in the numbers that you see on the dashboard. You know, and then you know, it will become a kind of a game and, and that's, that's, that's why I'm very excited to you know, to use this kind of tools because it's, it's a kind of a game to improve the numbers and to, to investigate what is causing, you know, this kind of, off of output. Then it's not, you don't have to convince people anymore, because they can see in the data, how their decisions in life will affect the numbers and, and, you know, and their, the way they show up in life and and at work. And that would be my approach if I would start a program in the company just to start with a small group of people. And, and, and, and quantify the results so that they become the ambassador of your program for the for the next group of people I get. That's That's sounds really cool. I mean, the idea of a pilot is always good. So you have a small, small number of people who can experiment with this. I like the idea of, obviously, the measurement that's always data driven approach, which I favor for all the things I'm doing measure, measure. And then yeah, give them some tech, by give them what is probably the most affordable is the highest quality in terms of when it comes to result currently on the market. Right? It's my opinion, but there will be always better devices coming out. But it's for getting for practical purposes given all right, like it. And then and then some some guidance on how to to there is for each of these dimensions like sleep, exercise, nutrition, there is so much knowledge out there? And if you haven't, if you can share a few tips at the end as a leader with the with the team, they can start digging into it. And after a few months, maybe two, three months, you could validate these results, right? And then if it works out, which I would expect and would, right? The question is how can it scale, that would be another another discussion. But since wrapping up since we're getting getting towards the end of this episode, maybe share one biohack for leaders, where you said, Well, if I'm a leader, I'm listening to this, and maybe it is a tiny bit of interest to maybe improve my performance. Not sure if these guys what they're talking if this all makes sense. But if there's one simple things that they could try out for a few days, maybe for one or two weeks, that could make a big difference. What would it be, what would you? Yeah, there are of couse many, many acts that I could advise. One, one of the most important ones is the breathing. And so there are two dimensions. One is the HRV. You also talk talk a lot about HRv yourself, the heart rate variability training, that's, you, by breathing through your heart, you can influence your heart rate variability and by improving your heart rate variability, you improve your stress, your capability to manage stress. So especially when you are, you know, are very busy professional leader and a lot of pressure then managing your heart rate abilities have very profound profound tool. Snd the other one is just the breathing on its own. I practice each morning the Wim Hof breathing and I have my own ice bath and I want to recommend that everybody should buy an ice bath or build their own ice bath. But you know the cold showers in the morning and and then breathing, or first breathing thing and then the cold shower, you know. It makes such a difference when when you wake up and you're you know it's a little bit foggy in your head or whatever, you do the breathing and it's the remote method is 30 seconds breathing and then we tension and then breathing again and retention again. I want to explain the method itself but you know, it clears up your head, it gives you energy, it resets your your system and it's fairly simple, it's it's cheap, you know, you don't have to pay for breathing and and doesn't cost a lot of time. It's the Wim Hof Method, you know, it's 20 minutes in the morning. It's worth the effort to wake up earlier and to make it part of your morning ritual. And so I wake up one hour earlier than, than I used to do just to be able to make sure that I I can do my ice bath and breathing and that's, that makes my day. Absolutely. Yeah I mean, Ihave similar routine I think the Wim Hof breathing for those listening here, if you go on YouTube, Google Wim Hof breathing. There is a video which is 11 or 12 minutes, it walks you through three rounds of appraising, it's very simply just look at it, follow the instructions to get started. Of course, there's more things you can do once you get used to it. But it's like a reset, right? It's like in the morning, it's this reset. And the other one, the cold exposure to cold. I mean, the shower is a simple way to get started. And you nice to combine those things as well. And then, as you said, Yeah, get up earlier, right, because most leaders are busy, there's a packed schedule, and then we're talking about these things. The reality is actually not more time is you have to be smart about the time, right? If you use the morning before your regular stuff starts. This is investing in your in your own in yourself, right? That investment in yourself and the quality of life, in your performance. And then there's more things you can do, again, that don't take our time over the course of today, which I usually talk about as well as pleasing some mindfulness exercise and so on. So then I would say that biohacking is not really a time sink or anything, either. It's more, you have to become educated, smart, and you have to figure out how to in your personal case, squeeze it in right there. That's that's the art of biohacking, to make it as efficient as possible in you know, to stack biohacks as well. So, some people, they ask me, okay, you are lucky because you are working as your business. So you can spend so many time on biking, but then I say no, I have to run a business. So that I don't have that much time. And I know that I'm focused a lot on being as efficient as possible in implementing all this stuff, you know, to do the in between my activities. And, and as you mentioned, you know, the the morning, before everybody wakes up, it's the most valuable time to spend on your own health. Absolutely. And so thanks Eduard for all the good insights and the discussion. I think there was a lot of cool information in here that can be quite helpful for for leaders. And my hope is yeah, that few leaders basically get going and think about digital transformation, but in the context of mind, body. How this could actually impact their business. We'll put links in the show notes for all the stuff we talked about videos, of course, your side, snort code, and some of the products, we'll create a nice list. So you see all those different things that can be helpful in regards to what you just listen to. And then yeah, again, Eduard, thanks for being here. spending the time and sharing some of your experiences. Thank you. It was my pleasure.